Otherworld

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Post by Otherworld on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:40 am

I have always wondered why Angela would be looking for a person ( her Mama ) that is supposed to love and protect her at all costs but completely and utterly fails at it. All the while she completely mistakes James for that person .....

BoLM quotes:
In the otherworld of Silent Hill, the world is seen differently depending on the person.


The power of Silent Hill absorbs what people hold in their hearts and manifests delusions and elements of their subconscious minds. And so, the truth is that the consciousness that becomes the main constituent of what is called the "otherworld" varies.


Regarding James, who escapes from the crime that he has committed, elements from the depths of his consciousness are manifested. What the power of the town causes to appear before him is an otherworld that is a combination of his delusions and his desire for punishment.


Could it be as written above that the what is seen in the otherworld varies because it is manifested through the subconscious minds of specific individuals ? Making it different for everyone ?

Could it be because Angela knows that James completely and utterly fails at loving and protecting Mary at all costs ???? ..... Hmmm .....

Now this is just a theory backed up with circumstantial evidence.

I could be completely wrong here .......

But I ask ..... looking at what is below .... do you really think you see exactly what I see .... ?

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Post by CrazyCatLady on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:37 pm

Well, just gonna throw my two-cents in.

The lady in the ink blott looks like Angela's mom. The blott itself is in the shape of a butterfly. As we know, in Japanese culture, the butterfly is a symbol of rebirth. This is also associated with Maria symbolically and physically as she has a butterfly tattoo. Since this is associated with Maria, it is subsequently associated with Mary as well.

Edit: I notice the blott has changed. o.o But it still looks like a butterfly to me. And I can kind of see Angela's mom's silhouette. But maybe that's just because I was exposed to the other one first xD
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Otherworld

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Post by Otherworld on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:39 pm

^ My bad Nutmeg ..... I updated the ink blot as I did not notice there were "actual" pictures in it ..... :lol:

Sorry about that ....
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Post by CrazyCatLady on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:41 pm

Dangit :lol: I like interpreting ink blots too, like the one above. I missed out.
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Post by jam6i on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:49 pm

In that ink blot, I kinda see the app thumbnail image for the game Year Walk (which is a really good point and click type game)

Image

Anyway, I really can't believe that the concept of individual perception is somehow a debatable topic. Of course characters see things in different ways. SH2 and Downpour explicitly make this a prominent theme.

It blows my mind sometimes how this can be argued as something that doesn't happen.

When Angela and James meet in the labyrinth, that Abstract Daddy creature is not viewed by both A and J as the same thing. The proof is that the game goes clearly out of its way to tell you that two characters can be in the literal same room but see completely different things. We have to go on the evidence of what the game is literally shoving into our faces like a delicious deep dish pizza from Pete's Bowl-o-Rama.
There was a SIGNATURE here. It's gone now.
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

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Post by Otherworld on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:57 pm

Nutmeg wrote:Dangit :lol: I like interpreting ink blots too, like the one above. I missed out.


Sorry .... here you go :D

Image

jam6i wrote:Anyway, I really can't believe that the concept of individual perception is somehow a debatable topic. Of course characters see things in different ways. SH2 and Downpour explicitly make this a prominent theme.

It blows my mind sometimes how this can be argued as something that doesn't happen.

When Angela and James meet in the labyrinth, that Abstract Daddy creature is not viewed by both A and J as the same thing. The proof is that the game goes clearly out of its way to tell you that two characters can be in the literal same room but see completely different things. We have to go on the evidence of what the game is literally shoving into our faces like a delicious deep dish pizza from Pete's Bowl-o-Rama.


Then real question is ..... How could they see the same thing .....????
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Post by Borg on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:12 pm

In the otherworld of Silent Hill, the world is seen differently depending on the person.


The power of Silent Hill absorbs what people hold in their hearts and manifests delusions and elements of their subconscious minds. And so, the truth is that the consciousness that becomes the main constituent of what is called the "otherworld" varies.


It simply means that the look of the Otherworld can change, depending on the person.

Fire/rape imagery for Angela, meat locker for Eddie is a good example. The Otherworld is different because those two people have different problems etc.

jam6i wrote:When Angela and James meet in the labyrinth, that Abstract Daddy creature is not viewed by both A and J as the same thing.


Yes, it is.

James is in Angela's Otherworld, he sees what she sees.

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There's no strong proof they see something different.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Deadalux on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:17 pm

Here is something creepy for you.
Mary could be following James around.
Angela is looking for a motherly womanly figure.
What if Angela is seeing Mary?
Second theory:
Angela represents everything James failed to do.
James was someone who was supposed to protect Mary, but he couldn't help her at all.
Angela is looking for her mother. Her mother, though, was someone who was supposed to protect Angela, but she couldn't help her at all, either. James and Angela's mother both share similarities in this way.
Angela even asks, almost ironically begging him, "Will you love me?", and, "will you take care of me".


But . . . .
Thing's get really weird . . .
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Running away?
Guess what?
Her mother KNEW she was getting raped by her father and possibly even her brother. Her brother may have been a bully or a manipulator, or he could have even had something to do with the rape. Her mother, most likely in an abusive relationship, ran away and left her with her vile father and twisted brother. I know we have talked about this before, but her brother could have also just killed himself because he knew what happened to his sister and the father might have beat him. In any case, her mother KNEW and did nothing, trying to turn a blind eye to it and put all the blame on her daughter, Angela.

What do you think? Was Angela raped by her brother? Does Angela see her mother in James?
***Keep in mind whats important, even if it doesn't come true, at least you became someone who would fight for what they believe in! Much love to you all, everybody***
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:28 pm

devil hunter wrote:
In the otherworld of Silent Hill, the world is seen differently depending on the person.


The power of Silent Hill absorbs what people hold in their hearts and manifests delusions and elements of their subconscious minds. And so, the truth is that the consciousness that becomes the main constituent of what is called the "otherworld" varies.


It simply means that the look of the Otherworld can change, depending on the person.

Fire/rape imagery for Angela, meat locker for Eddie is a good example. The Otherworld is different because those two people have different problems etc.

jam6i wrote:When Angela and James meet in the labyrinth, that Abstract Daddy creature is not viewed by both A and J as the same thing.


Yes, it is.

James is in Angela's Otherworld, he sees what she sees.

Image

There's no strong proof they see something different.


We see the entire game through James POV. That's enough proof to directly contradict your statement ..... There is more than enough proof throughout the game to corroborate that.
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Post by Borg on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:43 pm

Otherworld wrote: We see the entire game through James POV. That's enough proof to directly contradict your statement ..... There is more than enough proof throughout the game to corroborate that.


By that logic we shouldn't believe in anything we see in SH1 and 4 and other games where we see things from someone else's POV.

Maybe Walter didn't hate dogs, that's what Henry thinks, therefore he sees dogs who attack him. Walter doesn't see dogs.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:47 pm

Believe whatever you want about that. But in Silent Hill 2 you are in your own otherworld. You see you own subconscious mind manifested ......
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Post by CrazyCatLady on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:48 pm

That is a good point. It's not the first nor last time we see someone else's Otherworld. All of SH1 is someone's elsea. All of 4 is someone elses. Arguably, SH3 is someone elses. It does and can happen.
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Post by jam6i on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:49 pm

It may not be entirely accurate to simply post a picture of that scene in the labyrinth and say "see? see?" because you're falling victim to that scene's deception. We must always remember that, in the main campaign, everything we see whenever James is involved is from his perspective.

The game blatantly goes out of its way to let the player know that, even when characters are together, they do not see exactly the same thing. However, it does not feel it necessary to tell you this every few seconds, so whenever a scene such as with Angela pops up, to think they see the same thing is falling victim to that intentional deception (much like how James asks Eddie if he had seen a red pyramid thing when in actuality that's a dumb question because of course he didn't).

Likewise, when James meets Eddie, it would be kind of silly to think Eddie is surveying a pile of human bodies, because that's not what people are to Eddie. Those people were monster-like in the eyes of Eddie, even though he still knew they were people. When James walks in, he sees a pile of human bodies, because that wasn't James' demonic struggle. James saw people, Eddie saw monsters.

The game tries pretty hard to let the player know that whatever you see whenever James is involved is from his viewpoint alone. This concept is brought up with Angela, Laura, Eddie, and to a small extent Mary (although since Mary is so closely linked with James, that's a different issue).

The only possible exception to all this is the staircase of fire, yet even then the two characters don't actually acknowledge they both see fire, only that it's "hot" (a purposeful ambiguity on the writer's part most likely).

Assuming Angela and James sees exactly the same thing in the labyrinth is probably falling victim to that scene's deception, even though the game tries to make it s point that it's all relative.

And, of course, all this i am saying is exclusive to SH2 (and by extension Downpour, since they both share the same concept). This all can't be brazenly applied to any of the other games just to disprove the events of SH2. SH2 is a book-ended tale that has nothing to do with what unrelated characters in unrelated scenes in unrelated games see.

Take SH4 for example. Since most of the events are manifestations of Walter, anyone inside those worlds will see whatever Walter puts there. There is no perceptual ambiguity, because that's not the point of the story.

This is all exclusive to the games in which perceptual ambiguity is a key point (SH2, Downpour, and I suppose to a small degree Homecoming as well, but don't hold me to my word on Homecoming).
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Post by Borg on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:58 pm

Otherworld wrote: But in Silent Hill 2 you are in your own otherworld. You see you own subconscious mind manifested ......


Except the times when you enter someone else's Otherworld.

jam6i wrote: We must always remember that, in the main campaign, everything we see whenever James is involved is from his perspective.


And that's why we mustn't believe in anything we see in SH1, 4 etc.

jam6i wrote:The game blatantly goes out of its way to let the player know that, even when characters are together, they do not see exactly the same thing.


I'm guessing that's in some special edition I didn't play.

jam6i wrote:Likewise, when James meets Eddie, it would be kind of silly to think Eddie is surveying a pile of human bodies, because that's not what people are to Eddie. Those people were monster-like in the eyes of Eddie, even though he still knew they were people. When James walks in, he sees a pile of human bodies, because that wasn't James' demonic struggle. James saw people, Eddie saw monsters.


We never really see his monsters and what we do see looks weird, even the various dead bodies lying everyhwere.

jam6i wrote:The only possible exception to all this is the staircase of fire, yet even then the two characters don't actually acknowledge they both see fire, only that it's "hot" (a purposeful ambiguity on the writer's part most likely).


Not really.

"You see it too?"

Therefore, they both see the fire.

jam6i wrote:Assuming Angela and James sees exactly the same thing in the labyrinth is probably falling victim to that scene's deception, even though the game tries to make it s point that it's all relative.


What deception? They see the same thing, he's in her Otherworld.

jam6i wrote: (and by extension Downpour, since they both share the same concept).


But Wheelman is probably Anne's monster. And the only thing that fits what you guys are saying is Bogeyman, but the thing is, the whole symbolism of that monster is precisely how people can see it differently.

jam6i wrote: Since most of the events are manifestations of Walter, anyone inside those worlds will see whatever Walter puts there. There is no perceptual ambiguity, because that's not the point of the story.


So, the town changes its rules whenever it feels like it?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:08 pm

devil hunter wrote:
Otherworld wrote: But in Silent Hill 2 you are in your own otherworld. You see you own subconscious mind manifested ......


Except the times when you enter someone else's Otherworld.


There is no exception .... it does not stop.... and take a coffee break ....

To clarify, like Pur said, nightmares cross over, so we see Angela;s fire and Eddies meat locker when James understands the both of them (subconscious mind manifested ) . The rest of the game is seen in James POV.
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Post by Borg on Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:14 pm

Otherworld wrote:
This no except .... it does not stop.... and take a coffee break ....

To clarify, like Pur said, nightmares cross over, so we see Angela;s fire and Eddies meat locker when James understands the both of them (subconscious mind manifested ) . The rest of the game is seen in James POV.


Yeah right. James was randomly walking around and then thought about Eddie for some random reason and he started seeing his Otherworld. Same with Angela.

He didn't end up in their Otherworld because town made him stumble upon them, it just depended on him.

I guess that also explains why he always sees Laura with things like drawings and Teddie bears, before even knowing her properly or just stumbling upon her accidentally.

It all depends on James and his subconciousness.

Boy, I love it when things in the series get dumbed down.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:25 pm

devil hunter wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
This no except .... it does not stop.... and take a coffee break ....

To clarify, like Pur said, nightmares cross over, so we see Angela;s fire and Eddies meat locker when James understands the both of them (subconscious mind manifested ) . The rest of the game is seen in James POV.


Yeah right. James was randomly walking around and then thought about Eddie for some random reason and he started seeing his Otherworld. Same with Angela.

He didn't end up in their Otherworld because town made him stumble upon them, it just depended on him.

I guess that also explains why he always sees Laura with things like drawings and Teddie bears, before even knowing her properly or just stumbling upon her accidentally.

It all depends on James and his subconciousness.

Boy, I love it when things in the series get dumbed down.


Talk about dumbing things down .....

Like Pur said nightmares overlap, And James is supposed to be where her ends up. Ever try and walk past the door where the AB boss battle happens ...... Guess what the game does not let you..... I wonder why that is. ?

The characters learn just as much about each other as they do about themselves. That is what the game is all about. James learning about who he really is.
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Post by jam6i on Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:13 pm

Nightmares overlap and things get very distorted and confusing as a result of it. This is a theme in both SH2 and Downpour.

All of these journeys are occurring simultaneously. It only just so happens that, at certain points, the paths cross. And because these paths all carry manifested worlds brought by individual characters, when these worlds collide, things get very shaken (but not stirred).

I also felt this was something the games (SH2 and, more blatantly, Downpour) tried to show the audience.

When the nightmares/journeys cross in the labyrinth, James and Angela both see a thing...but it's up to the observer to determine what that thing actually looks like. Even though paths are crossing, the town is still drawing inspiration for the character's subconsciouses.

Has anyone ever considered the possibility that abstract daddy looks like a man hovering over someone on a bed smothering another person?

Image

See, to Angela this creature could symbolize her dad hovering over her at night while she lay in bed.

But to James, this could be the subconscious manifestation of the scene in which he does the deed to Mary with the pillow.

And the demon could look slightly different to angela than it does to James. But it is rather interesting that it could symbolize two separate things.
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Post by Deadalux on Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:16 pm

Instead of focusing on the technicalities that we can never understand because we didnt make the games, lets focus on what it does for us and what it symbolizes, what it teaches us, and how this shapes the story.
Worlds cross, dimensions shift, reality changes, nightmares become reality, people can share madness like sharing dreams, and we are forced to look into ourselves. We're arguing about things that have no basis in reality or logic, so there's no way to understand it.
What we should be doing is learning about why things happen story wise and what that implies for the rest of the energy of the games.
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Post by Borg on Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:40 pm

jam6i wrote:But to James, this could be the subconscious manifestation of the scene in which he does the deed to Mary with the pillow.

And the demon could look slightly different to angela than it does to James. But it is rather interesting that it could symbolize two separate things.


Ito said it's Angela's monster though, the whole room symbolizes what happened to her.

Also, Murphy in Downpour saw a little girl which has no symbolism for him whatsoever and Anne saw the same girl.
 
 
 
 
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